Hi Felix, okay, I just try to find some criteria so that we find those nodes + arcs which really cause trouble. A lot of sharp angles are between oneway roads which don't allow traveleling the sharp angle. I think that also means that I can add code to ignore sharp angles on pedestrian-only ways. Gerd Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:39:11 +0200 From: extremecarver@gmail.com To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] sharp angles and routing Well - not in Pedestrian mode. I meant if you design a map with road-class=4 as preferred way for pedestrians... Then of course using a non pedestrian profile for routing so it chooses road-class=4 or 3 preferably. For Pedestrian mode chosen - there is no time penalty for sharp turns - though I did not test if it would prefer ways that point towards the destination at intersections. On 11 August 2015 at 09:30, Gerd Petermann <gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi Felix, please check: you said that sharp angles also have an effect on pedestrian routing, I was not able to reproduce that. Can you give an example? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

Hi Felix, My current approach is to evaluate the results of the style, so it is up to the author to decide what a pedestrian-only way is. Another point is that we don't need the check for ways which can't be accessed by bike. I am aware that these checks must be ignored when a special cycling map is created (or any other special map, we just have to find out meaningful option names) I am trying to produce test data to find out in what case Garmin prefers a small detour, this should help to find concrete rules. Gerd To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk From: extremecarver@gmail.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:44:06 +0200 Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] sharp angles and routing Well - what is a strict pedestrian only way? highway=pedestrian - often can be used with bikes too (going slower) highway=footway -- often still outside cities and used for mtbiking though maybe not allowed. highway=path & bicycle=no ---> very often nice mtbike trails in countries where mtbiking is mainly forbidden like Baden-Wuerttemberg or Austria. And yeah - oneways could be excluded - but needs some care to not exclude them (for cycling maps) if oneway:bicycle=no; bicycle:oneway=no; oneway:bicycle=both; ( cycleway=* & cycleway!=oneway ) would be the most common keys which mean cycling against oneway direction is allowed. For me excluding all ways that get tagged road-class=0 or 1, and road-speed=0 could be excluded (but sometimes I use continue and double ways so it exists with say road-class=4, road-speed=2 as well as road-class=0, road-speed=0 in order to get me through sharp turns - if the sharp angle fixing would work well - maybe I could drop this). On 11.08.2015 09:52, Gerd Petermann wrote: Hi Felix, okay, I just try to find some criteria so that we find those nodes + arcs which really cause trouble. A lot of sharp angles are between oneway roads which don't allow traveleling the sharp angle. I think that also means that I can add code to ignore sharp angles on pedestrian-only ways. Gerd Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:39:11 +0200 From: extremecarver@gmail.com To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] sharp angles and routing Well - not in Pedestrian mode. I meant if you design a map with road-class=4 as preferred way for pedestrians... Then of course using a non pedestrian profile for routing so it chooses road-class=4 or 3 preferably. For Pedestrian mode chosen - there is no time penalty for sharp turns - though I did not test if it would prefer ways that point towards the destination at intersections. On 11 August 2015 at 09:30, Gerd Petermann <gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi Felix, please check: you said that sharp angles also have an effect on pedestrian routing, I was not able to reproduce that. Can you give an example? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- keep on biking and discovering new trails Felix openmtbmap.org & www.velomap.org _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

Hi Felix, can't believe that Garmin ignores it, can you prove that with the default style? If not I assume that you create multiple arcs and one allows cycling. Gerd To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk From: extremecarver@gmail.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:31:35 +0200 Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] sharp angles and routing okay - sounds great... (as new devices do not really mind mkgmap:bicycle=no it does not matter so much anymore - I'm only setting pedestrian restrictions different to all others for my maps ) On 11.08.2015 10:57, Gerd Petermann wrote: Hi Felix, My current approach is to evaluate the results of the style, so it is up to the author to decide what a pedestrian-only way is. Another point is that we don't need the check for ways which can't be accessed by bike. I am aware that these checks must be ignored when a special cycling map is created (or any other special map, we just have to find out meaningful option names) I am trying to produce test data to find out in what case Garmin prefers a small detour, this should help to find concrete rules. Gerd To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk From: extremecarver@gmail.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:44:06 +0200 Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] sharp angles and routing Well - what is a strict pedestrian only way? highway=pedestrian - often can be used with bikes too (going slower) highway=footway -- often still outside cities and used for mtbiking though maybe not allowed. highway=path & bicycle=no ---> very often nice mtbike trails in countries where mtbiking is mainly forbidden like Baden-Wuerttemberg or Austria. And yeah - oneways could be excluded - but needs some care to not exclude them (for cycling maps) if oneway:bicycle=no; bicycle:oneway=no; oneway:bicycle=both; ( cycleway=* & cycleway!=oneway ) would be the most common keys which mean cycling against oneway direction is allowed. For me excluding all ways that get tagged road-class=0 or 1, and road-speed=0 could be excluded (but sometimes I use continue and double ways so it exists with say road-class=4, road-speed=2 as well as road-class=0, road-speed=0 in order to get me through sharp turns - if the sharp angle fixing would work well - maybe I could drop this). On 11.08.2015 09:52, Gerd Petermann wrote: Hi Felix, okay, I just try to find some criteria so that we find those nodes + arcs which really cause trouble. A lot of sharp angles are between oneway roads which don't allow traveleling the sharp angle. I think that also means that I can add code to ignore sharp angles on pedestrian-only ways. Gerd Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 09:39:11 +0200 From: extremecarver@gmail.com To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] sharp angles and routing Well - not in Pedestrian mode. I meant if you design a map with road-class=4 as preferred way for pedestrians... Then of course using a non pedestrian profile for routing so it chooses road-class=4 or 3 preferably. For Pedestrian mode chosen - there is no time penalty for sharp turns - though I did not test if it would prefer ways that point towards the destination at intersections. On 11 August 2015 at 09:30, Gerd Petermann <gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi Felix, please check: you said that sharp angles also have an effect on pedestrian routing, I was not able to reproduce that. Can you give an example? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- keep on biking and discovering new trails Felix openmtbmap.org & www.velomap.org _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- keep on biking and discovering new trails Felix openmtbmap.org & www.velomap.org _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev

Hi all, I've found some rules and started to code. The results of the first working version using the default style looked promising. My approach: 1) For each routing node collect all direct arcs to other nodes 2) sort these arcs by initial heading (IH) 3) check the angle between two consecutive arcs, when it is too small: 3a) ignore the sharp angle when road speed of both is 0 3b) ignore the sharp angle when no vehicle is allowed to travel both arcs. - check oneways, - check access (car, bicycle, foot etc) - check route restrictions (from restriction relations or barriers) 4) For both arcs that build the sharp angle: calculate the angle to the next arc (before / after) If these angles are big enough, change the corresponding initial heading value of the arc so that the sharp angle is enlarged and the large angle is made a bit more sharp. This seems to work quite well with the default style as long as --make-opposite-cycleways is not used. With --make-opposite-cycleways we sometimes see two arcs with the same IH but different different results for the 3a) and 3b) check. The angle between these two arcs is - of course - 0 (zero). The cycle map styles like those from Minko or Felix will be even more complex (or not ?). To solve this problem I can combine the arcs again so that all arcs which are based on the same OSM way appear only once when calculating angles. If the heading of such a combined arc is changed, I just have to make sure that all corresponding arcs are changed. My problem: In most cases the combined arcs will have different routing attributes, so the code for the checks in 3b) will be very complex or they have to be ignored. Any ideas? Maybe I don't see the wood for the trees? Gerd GerdP wrote

Hi Felix,

My current approach is to evaluate the results of the style, so it is up to the author to decide what a pedestrian-only way is. Another point is that we don't need the check for ways which can't be accessed by bike. I am aware that these checks must be ignored when a special cycling map is created (or any other special map, we just have to find out meaningful option names)

I am trying to produce test data to find out in what case Garmin prefers a small detour, this should help to find concrete rules.

Gerd

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