default style: highway=path means unpaved?
Hi all, I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019 I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag. The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 } My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated. Does anybody have a better solution? Gerd
Well that was introduced because it is unknown. If you have a map and want to avoid unpaved ways - and select that - then there really should be no unpaved ways. If we don't set unpaved here - the avoidance will not be strict enough anymore... highway=path & bicycle=designated could well be a tracktype=grade2 and sometimes even grade3 or worse... And in cases of a mtb route - clearly something completely unrideable for a normal cyclist... On 8 September 2015 at 10:19, Gerd Petermann < gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019
I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag.
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated.
Does anybody have a better solution?
Gerd
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-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
yet in brisbane , to ipswich area , most are paved with concrete , or bitumen some bicycles just use the main road .. So how can you code for that ? Stephen On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Felix Hartmann <extremecarver@gmail.com> wrote:
Well that was introduced because it is unknown. If you have a map and want to avoid unpaved ways - and select that - then there really should be no unpaved ways. If we don't set unpaved here - the avoidance will not be strict enough anymore... highway=path & bicycle=designated could well be a tracktype=grade2 and sometimes even grade3 or worse... And in cases of a mtb route - clearly something completely unrideable for a normal cyclist...
On 8 September 2015 at 10:19, Gerd Petermann < gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019
I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag.
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated.
Does anybody have a better solution?
Gerd
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
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Hi Steve, On Tue, Sep 08, 2015 at 06:34:34PM +1000, Steve Sgalowski wrote:
yet in brisbane , to ipswich area , most are paved with concrete , or bitumen some bicycles just use the main road .. So how can you code for that ?
If the ways are accurately tagged as surface=paved or surface=concrete or surface=asphalt (or smoothness=good or whatever), then the rule will not set the key mkgmap:unpaved=1. So, if you want to fix it, please add some surface=* to the affected ways, to make the map more accurate. Theoretically, you could add some bounds-based rules for setting the default surface of bicycle paths, but I would recommend against doing that. I prefer more explicit than implicit (easier for all tools that use the map data). BTW, the "add" keyword in mkgmap style language means "set if not already set to something". The "set" keyword simply overrides any existing value. So, if any other rule already assigned mkgmap:unpaved to something, this rule would not change it further:
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
And BTW, we have both unpaved and paved cycleways here in Finland (and I guess, Europe in general). There are also lots of forest paths, some of which are rideable by bicycle, depending on the bicycle and rider, and also the current conditions (dry/muddy/snowy/icy). I agree with Felix that unknown should be treated as unpaved, to default to a sane/safe value (do not send racing cycles to potentially unrideable ways). If you do not mind entering unknown surfaces, simply deselect the "avoid unpaved ways" routing setting. Marko
Hi Felix, okay, got the point, but why do we assume that a highway=unclassified is paved when no other tag gives information? Might be a good assumption in Germany or Austria, but probably not in other areas. Gerd Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:32:14 +0200 From: extremecarver@gmail.com To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] default style: highway=path means unpaved? Well that was introduced because it is unknown. If you have a map and want to avoid unpaved ways - and select that - then there really should be no unpaved ways. If we don't set unpaved here - the avoidance will not be strict enough anymore... highway=path & bicycle=designated could well be a tracktype=grade2 and sometimes even grade3 or worse... And in cases of a mtb route - clearly something completely unrideable for a normal cyclist... On 8 September 2015 at 10:19, Gerd Petermann <gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi all, I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019 I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag. The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 } My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated. Does anybody have a better solution? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
For Unclassified - yes I agree. It should be rather unpaved. However for at least highway=cycleway and highway=unclassified (very rare anyhow) - I think a country based list wouldn't be too bad. If you know that 99% of such ways in your country are paved - shout out.... Otherweise IMHO both should be assumed unpaved. Unclassified I would guess paved by default for Central/Western/ European countries? But unpaved for Northern (but not Denmark), Eastern European countries - and the rest of the world? Certainly unpaved for most of Asia and Africa... On 8 September 2015 at 10:46, Gerd Petermann < gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Felix,
okay, got the point, but why do we assume that a highway=unclassified is paved when no other tag gives information? Might be a good assumption in Germany or Austria, but probably not in other areas.
Gerd
------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:32:14 +0200 From: extremecarver@gmail.com To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] default style: highway=path means unpaved?
Well that was introduced because it is unknown. If you have a map and want to avoid unpaved ways - and select that - then there really should be no unpaved ways. If we don't set unpaved here - the avoidance will not be strict enough anymore... highway=path & bicycle=designated could well be a tracktype=grade2 and sometimes even grade3 or worse... And in cases of a mtb route - clearly something completely unrideable for a normal cyclist...
On 8 September 2015 at 10:19, Gerd Petermann < gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019
I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag.
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated.
Does anybody have a better solution?
Gerd
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
Here in Thailand there is an understanding that an unclassified way is more important than a residential way but less important than a tertiary highway. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Thailand#Highway_classificati... for more information. Most but not all unclassified ways are paved in Thailand. I never understood the reasoning behind this but the practice is in wide use and mappers here generally abide by it. I think it might have come about because mappers were looking for a way to classify roads that are important connectors but were not strictly residential and that have no official designation like a route number. On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Felix Hartmann <extremecarver@gmail.com> wrote:
For Unclassified - yes I agree. It should be rather unpaved. However for at least highway=cycleway and highway=unclassified (very rare anyhow) - I think a country based list wouldn't be too bad. If you know that 99% of such ways in your country are paved - shout out.... Otherweise IMHO both should be assumed unpaved. Unclassified I would guess paved by default for Central/Western/ European countries? But unpaved for Northern (but not Denmark), Eastern European countries - and the rest of the world? Certainly unpaved for most of Asia and Africa...
On 8 September 2015 at 10:46, Gerd Petermann < gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Felix,
okay, got the point, but why do we assume that a highway=unclassified is paved when no other tag gives information? Might be a good assumption in Germany or Austria, but probably not in other areas.
Gerd
------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:32:14 +0200 From: extremecarver@gmail.com To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] default style: highway=path means unpaved?
Well that was introduced because it is unknown. If you have a map and want to avoid unpaved ways - and select that - then there really should be no unpaved ways. If we don't set unpaved here - the avoidance will not be strict enough anymore... highway=path & bicycle=designated could well be a tracktype=grade2 and sometimes even grade3 or worse... And in cases of a mtb route - clearly something completely unrideable for a normal cyclist...
On 8 September 2015 at 10:19, Gerd Petermann < gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019
I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag.
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated.
Does anybody have a better solution?
Gerd
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
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-- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
Hi all, I think I should add that in Germany we have thousands of these ways, and I am very sure that most of them are paved. The reason is that Germany is full of signs like 237 , 241, and 242 (see http://osmtools.de/traffic_signs/) and that page still recommends to use the tags "highway=path" and "bicycle=designated" for them. In Germany a cyclist has to use these ways, so you can be pretty sure that they are paved. So, maybe we can add an exception for Germany? Gerd GerdP wrote
Hi all,
I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019
I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag.
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated.
Does anybody have a better solution?
Gerd
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mkgmap-dev@.org
-- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/default-style-highway-path-means-unpaved-tp58... Sent from the Mkgmap Development mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Are you sure they are always paved? At least for Austria quite a lot of them are actually gravel - on the countryside at least. In rural parts they are mostly paved... On 8 September 2015 at 12:12, GerdP <gpetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all, I think I should add that in Germany we have thousands of these ways, and I am very sure that most of them are paved. The reason is that Germany is full of signs like 237 , 241, and 242 (see http://osmtools.de/traffic_signs/) and that page still recommends to use the tags "highway=path" and "bicycle=designated" for them. In Germany a cyclist has to use these ways, so you can be pretty sure that they are paved.
So, maybe we can add an exception for Germany? Gerd
GerdP wrote
Hi all,
I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019
I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag.
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated.
Does anybody have a better solution?
Gerd
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list
mkgmap-dev@.org
-- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/default-style-highway-path-means-unpaved-tp58... Sent from the Mkgmap Development mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
Hi Felix, I am sure regarding the signs. Unfortunately one cannot be sure that such a sign was the reason for the tags unless the info is available. On the other hand, if the idea was to prevent racing bikes using these ways, it might be better to keep the rules as they are. A lot of these ways are surface=paving_stones and they go up and down a few cm at each service way and often are very close to entrances, so even as a normal cyclist I don't like to use them. It seems that in my area someone in the government thinks the same way, many of the signs were replaced by a combination of traffic_sign=DE:239;DE:1022-10 I stumbled over this because Basecamp avoids unpaved roads for cycling by default and I wondered why the cycle ways were not used. Gerd Felix Hartmann-2 wrote
Are you sure they are always paved? At least for Austria quite a lot of them are actually gravel - on the countryside at least. In rural parts they are mostly paved...
On 8 September 2015 at 12:12, GerdP <
gpetermann_muenchen@
> wrote:
Hi all, I think I should add that in Germany we have thousands of these ways, and I am very sure that most of them are paved. The reason is that Germany is full of signs like 237 , 241, and 242 (see http://osmtools.de/traffic_signs/) and that page still recommends to use the tags "highway=path" and "bicycle=designated" for them. In Germany a cyclist has to use these ways, so you can be pretty sure that they are paved.
So, maybe we can add an exception for Germany? Gerd
GerdP wrote
Hi all,
I just noted that the default style sets the mkgmap:unpaved flag for many cycleways, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/276070019
I see intensive discussions about wrong use of highway=path and/or wrong interpretation of that tag.
The rule in lines is (highway=bridleway | highway=path | highway=track | highway=unsurfaced) & surface!=* & tracktype!=* & smoothness!=* & sac_scale!=* { add mkgmap:unpaved=1 }
My understanding is that highway=track is likely to be unpaved, but highway=path doesn't suggest that, esp. not in combination with bicycle=designated.
Does anybody have a better solution?
Gerd
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list
mkgmap-dev@.org
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-- Felix Hartman - Openmtbmap.org & VeloMap.org Floragasse 9/11 1040 Wien Austria - Österreich
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participants (6)
-
Dave Swarthout -
Felix Hartmann -
Gerd Petermann -
GerdP
-
Marko Mäkelä -
Steve Sgalowski