Tagging restaurants and categories
I've noticed that category searching on my Garmin Nuvi that it will not find Dunkin' Donuts when searching for Donut/Bagel in the USA. I ended up finding out that if an amenity is tagged amenity=fast_food the restaurant will automatically be placed in the fast food category and nothing else. The rub is that pretty much all donut/bagel shops necessarily are "fast food" because the food needs to be prepared well in advance, waiting a half hour or more for yeast to rise for fresh prepartion would be very inconvenient. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/POI_Types it seems that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant. In this case I wonder if it would be better to have categorization slightly different where fast_food would be a later conditional, so that (in the USA) Fazoli's (fast semicasual italian), Dunkin' Donuts, Einstein Bagels, Winchell's, Lamar's Donuts, Krispy Kreme Donuts, Pizza Hut (fast casual pizza), etc. should show up as their food category rather than simply as fast food. This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization with the template tags when editing in iD. I found a few independent donut shops and having a hard time deciding whether to mark them as fast_food as they definitely are, but they will subsequently not show up as a donut/bagel shop. Comments, or perhaps nobody really uses these things to find shops anymore...
Hi blc, not sure what this is about. If you want to discuss tagging of OSM objects this is the wrong list. If you want to know out how to tweak your garmin map style to use a different POI for a given type of shop you may be right here. Gerd ________________________________________ Von: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> im Auftrag von blc <blc+mkgmap@mail.vanade.com> Gesendet: Montag, 2. März 2020 21:07 An: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Betreff: [mkgmap-dev] Tagging restaurants and categories I've noticed that category searching on my Garmin Nuvi that it will not find Dunkin' Donuts when searching for Donut/Bagel in the USA. I ended up finding out that if an amenity is tagged amenity=fast_food the restaurant will automatically be placed in the fast food category and nothing else. The rub is that pretty much all donut/bagel shops necessarily are "fast food" because the food needs to be prepared well in advance, waiting a half hour or more for yeast to rise for fresh prepartion would be very inconvenient. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/POI_Types it seems that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant. In this case I wonder if it would be better to have categorization slightly different where fast_food would be a later conditional, so that (in the USA) Fazoli's (fast semicasual italian), Dunkin' Donuts, Einstein Bagels, Winchell's, Lamar's Donuts, Krispy Kreme Donuts, Pizza Hut (fast casual pizza), etc. should show up as their food category rather than simply as fast food. This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization with the template tags when editing in iD. I found a few independent donut shops and having a hard time deciding whether to mark them as fast_food as they definitely are, but they will subsequently not show up as a donut/bagel shop. Comments, or perhaps nobody really uses these things to find shops anymore... _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
On 02/03/2020 20:07, blc wrote:
Comments, or perhaps nobody really uses these things to find shops anymore...
Well I certainly do!
This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization with the template tags when editing in iD.
First things first, I'd try and get the tagging right in OSM itself (via iD or whichever other editor you're using). For a donut place I'd have expected amenity=fast_food, but maybe for some amenity=cafe would be OK for some. I'm guessing a bit here because I'm from the UK and donuts aren't really a thing here - we have healthy alternatives like Greggs' Steak Bakes and Pukka Pies instead :)
I found a few independent donut shops and having a hard time deciding whether to mark them as fast_food as they definitely are, but they will subsequently not show up as a donut/bagel shop.
Well "what things show up as" on a Garmin depends on what rules you write in in the style used to create the Garmin map. I've not tried it, but I guess that you could write some fairly complicated rules that identified donut places and mapped them to "0x0d" from https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/POI_Types . It'd be up to the people packaging the "standard" style whether that incorporated those rules, but there's nothing stopping you creating your own style with them.
it seems that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant.
I don't think that creating multiple Garmin POIs per OSM POI is possible using mkgmap "out of the box". I did experiment with it ages ago, but didn't go anywhere with it as it didn't really seem beneficial - you've always got the option of searching "all food and drink" to cut across subcategories.* Best Regards, Andy * on my Garmin anyway - I'm aware that different models vary.
On Mon, 2 Mar 2020, Andy Townsend wrote:
This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization with the template tags when editing in iD.
First things first, I'd try and get the tagging right in OSM itself (via iD or whichever other editor you're using).? For a donut place I'd have expected amenity=fast_food, but maybe for some amenity=cafe would be OK for some.? I'm guessing a bit here because I'm from the UK and donuts aren't really a thing here - we have healthy alternatives like Greggs' Steak Bakes and Pukka Pies instead :)
Yeah, I thought that there was an issue if a particular POI is tagged for both amenity=fast_food and cuisine=donut -- if this is the case, then currently as far as I know the default is that the shop will show up as fast_food and will not show up as their food type (donut). If this actually can be configured with mkgmap options, then this is the way that needs to be pursued. I thought this was hardcoded during the map conversion as this seems a bit odd that the default was to lump everything into fast_food.
it seems that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant.
I don't think that creating multiple Garmin POIs per OSM POI is possible using mkgmap "out of the box".? I did experiment with it ages ago, but didn't go anywhere with it as it didn't really seem beneficial - you've always got the option of searching "all food and drink" to cut across subcategories.*
It took me a while to figure out why when I searched for donuts why I couldn't find Dunkin' or Krispy Kreme. The only way to find these is to look through "all fast food" and not "bagel/donuts" which can be annoying if it's 5AM and want to get some donuts on the way to work, plus Krispy Kreme doesn't even contain the word "Donut" in their shop name and I'd totally miss this as a donut shop. It was when I took a look at the tagging for some of the independent, non-chain donut shops that did show up -- 100km away which would not be acceptable for a morning run, and then some experiments in OSM that I found out how to get a particular donut shop to show up on the Garmin. The only reason why I brought up the iD issue is that if someone creates a new POI for Dunkin' in OSM it will contain both amenity=fast_food and cuisine=donut in OSM. If amenity=fast_food was forcibly changed to amenity=cafe, the option to "upgrade" the tag in iD will show up and automatically set amenity=fast_food back, so this would be a unpleasant fix (plus most/all of the thousands of Dunkin' Donuts in OSM will already have amenity=fast_food - while it can be scripted to change all thousands of the shops or use of #maproulette, I don't think this is the right way to tag things.) Similar issues will show up for stores like Panda Express (fast_food/ Chinese) where I think many people at least in the USA would choose this option if they wanted Chinese food even though it is fast_food. As I don't know all locales I'm sure there are a lot of people that would find fast_food as an acceptable option when looking for a specific type of food. This is why I believe that the ultimate "fix" had to be a change in the consumption of OSM data and would require a mkgmap change. Again I could be wrong on this account and a mkgmap config change is all that's needed, as once again I'm depending on someone else's mkgmap run, and this would be something I should forward onto the mkgmap builder once I find out how to do it. Thanks, and glad people are still using this feature on their GPS instead of depending on their cellular phones!
blc-2 wrote
This is why I believe that the ultimate "fix" had to be a change in the consumption of OSM data and would require a mkgmap change. Again I could be wrong on this account and a mkgmap config change is all that's needed, as once again I'm depending on someone else's mkgmap run, and this would be something I should forward onto the mkgmap builder once I find out how to do it.
First you have to find out if the map was created with mkgmap. Garmins ships OSM maps which are created with a different tool. If the map was created with mkgmap, try to contact the map creator. The map creator is maintaining a so called style file which is responsible for the conversion between OSM and Garmin IMG format. The mkmap package comes with a default style which uses these rules: amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [*0x2a07* resolution 24] amenity=fast_food [*0x2a07* resolution 24] So an object tagged with amenity=fast_food will result in a POI of type *0x2a07*. There are more detailed rules to handle amenity=restaurant : amenity=restaurant & cuisine!=* [0x2a00 resolution 24] ... cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut [*0x2a0d* resolution 24] So, maybe we should change the default rules for amenity=fast_food to treat cuisine=bagel and cuisine=donut in the same way as with amenity=restaurant to produce *0x2a0d*? Gerd -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Mkgmap-Development-f5324443.html
Hi all It relatively easy for a style to generate multiple POI for the same point, in this case one "Fast Food" and one "Bagel/Donut". The default style doesn't do this, but it makes a choice about which is shown in this and similar cases, carefully commented to show how to get the other: # Have the following 2 lines here rather than after cuisine=... so that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is ignored amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [0x2a07 resolution 24] amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24] ... cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut [0x2a0d resolution 24] ... Have the following 2 lines here rather than before cuisine=... so that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is respected #amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [0x2a07 resolution 24] #amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24] Ticker
Multiple tags seem to occur more frequently in OSM , particularly in polygons and to a lesser extent in lines. Luxembourg is a good example. I've had to adapt my style to ensure woods were plotted when combined with another tag. ie *Polygons* combining natural , landuse , leisure etc natural=wood & landuse=grass leisure & natural / landuse leisure=nature_reserve and landuse=forest *Lines* waterway=stream & boundary=administrative I'm not sure how the default style deals with this and perhaps it doesn't matter. regards Nick On 03/03/2020 08:12, Ticker Berkin wrote:
Hi all
It relatively easy for a style to generate multiple POI for the same point, in this case one "Fast Food" and one "Bagel/Donut".
The default style doesn't do this, but it makes a choice about which is shown in this and similar cases, carefully commented to show how to get the other:
# Have the following 2 lines here rather than after cuisine=... so that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is ignored amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [0x2a07 resolution 24] amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]
...
cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut [0x2a0d resolution 24]
...
Have the following 2 lines here rather than before cuisine=... so that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is respected #amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [0x2a07 resolution 24] #amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]
Ticker
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
Thanks all, I see this in the default style file and now have the answer: need a change to the style. I see the comments in the file - this satisfies the query. Looking through my locale and the categories available on my Garmin, the bagel/donut shops are the only one that seems to be an outlier. I've always known this area has a lot of health nuts and for the longest time the only Dunkin' Donuts went out of business, but there is definitely one in town once more among a lot of other independent shops, just weird none show up. I suppose I'll leave this up to whoever whether to change the default or not. I only know of two chain restaurants that also get binned into fast_food but people in the USA may or may not consider them "fast food quality" that may or may not be better to show up in their category... Thanks. On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, Pinns UK wrote:
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:50:02 +0000 From: Pinns UK <osm@pinns.co.uk> Reply-To: Development list for mkgmap <mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> To: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Tagging restaurants and categories
Multiple tags seem to occur more frequently in OSM , particularly in polygons and to a lesser extent in lines. Luxembourg is a good example.
I've had to adapt my style to ensure woods were plotted when combined with another tag.
ie
Polygons
combining natural , landuse , leisure etc
natural=wood & landuse=grass
leisure & natural / landuse
leisure=nature_reserve and landuse=forest
Lines
waterway=stream & boundary=administrative
I'm not sure how the default style deals with this? and perhaps it doesn't matter.
regards
Nick
On 03/03/2020 08:12, Ticker Berkin wrote:
Hi all
It relatively easy for a style to generate multiple POI for the same point, in this case one "Fast Food" and one "Bagel/Donut".
The default style doesn't do this, but it makes a choice about which is shown in this and similar cases, carefully commented to show how to get the other:
# Have the following 2 lines here rather than after cuisine=... so that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is ignored amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [0x2a07 resolution 24] amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]
...
cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut [0x2a0d resolution 24]
...
Have the following 2 lines here rather than before cuisine=... so that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is respected #amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [0x2a07 resolution 24] #amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]
Ticker
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
WARNING: All HTML emails get auto deleted. DO NOT SEND HTML MAIL. WARNING: Emails with large typo counts/spelling errors will also be deleted.
I had a similar issue with [amenity=cafe] or [amenity=pub] also serving "bar meals". In the Netherlands, name is often something like: "Eetcafé Xxxx". ("Eet" to be translated as "Eat"). Also some Mappers prefer to Tag a "pub" as "cafe" which is Rendered as a "cup of coffee". IMO: "cafe" means: coffee, tea, pastry shop, lunchroom. And 90% no: beer of wine (alcohol). "pub" means: Public place serving alcohol. I did Resolve - as Renderer - for 90% by: (amenity=cafe | amenity=pub) & name ~ '.*([Ee]etcaf[eé]).*' { set amenity=restaurant } (amenity=cafe) & name ~ '.*([Cc]af[eé]).*' { set amenity=pub } (amenity=pub) & (cuisine=* & cuisine!=coffee_shop | food=yes) { set amenity=restaurant } (amenity=cafe) & (cuisine=* & cuisine!=coffee_shop) { set amenity=restaurant } FWIW: IMO "fast_food" is not only related to "time needed for preparation" (even in a star restaurant some courses are prepared in a couple of minutes). When waiting for boarding a ferry, fast_food is the only option. I need to have "dinner" is a short time, therefore: fast_food. -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Mkgmap-Development-f5324443.html
participants (7)
-
Andy Townsend -
AnkEric -
blc -
blc -
Gerd Petermann -
Pinns UK -
Ticker Berkin