How to fix amenity=shelter in the default style?
Last week, I changed the POI type for amenity=shelter in the default style from 0x2b05 (bed icon) to 0x6402 (an icon of a building block). Even though I later changed the resolution to 24, this symbol (along with grave yard symbols) seems to be visible from much greater distance than shops or anything else. I tried with two different map detail levels on my Edge 705. So, it looks like the 0x6402 is meant for skyscrapers and the like. Next try is with 0x6412. Same problem: at normal detail level, it shows at 120m zoom while shops and the like start to appear at 50m. At the highest detail level, shops appear at 120m and 0x6412 appears at 500m. Can anyone suggest a more suitable symbol for amenity=shelter? It does not need to be searchable, and it should not be any more 'visible' than, say, 0x2f17 (transit service; used by highway=bus_stop). The 'problem' at hand are two shelters on a railway station platform. I do not want them to be more visible on the map than the shops and other features in the town centre. Here are the nodes: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/439195020 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/439195021 If nobody can suggest a better symbol for amenity=shelter, I would remove amenity=shelter altogether from the default style. There seems to be some agreement that amenity=shelter may be too inaccurate tagging for the tourism or hiking related shelters. Side note: the unsearchable 0x6412 'hiker symbol' could be a good choice for some minor hiking feature. I think that sites where overnighting is possible do require a searchable symbol. Best regards, Marko
Marko Mäkelä (marko.makela@iki.fi) wrote:
Last week, I changed the POI type for amenity=shelter in the default style from 0x2b05 (bed icon) to 0x6402 (an icon of a building block). Even though I later changed the resolution to 24, this symbol (along with grave yard symbols) seems to be visible from much greater distance than shops or anything else. I tried with two different map detail levels on my Edge 705.
So, it looks like the 0x6402 is meant for skyscrapers and the like. Next try is with 0x6412. Same problem: at normal detail level, it shows at 120m zoom while shops and the like start to appear at 50m. At the highest detail level, shops appear at 120m and 0x6412 appears at 500m.
Can anyone suggest a more suitable symbol for amenity=shelter? It does not need to be searchable, and it should not be any more 'visible' than, say, 0x2f17 (transit service; used by highway=bus_stop).
The 'problem' at hand are two shelters on a railway station platform. I do not want them to be more visible on the map than the shops and other features in the town centre. Here are the nodes:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/439195020 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/439195021
If nobody can suggest a better symbol for amenity=shelter, I would remove amenity=shelter altogether from the default style. There seems to be some agreement that amenity=shelter may be too inaccurate tagging for the tourism or hiking related shelters.
Side note: the unsearchable 0x6412 'hiker symbol' could be a good choice for some minor hiking feature. I think that sites where overnighting is possible do require a searchable symbol.
Best regards,
Marko Hi Marko,
The mysteries of the zoom-behaviour of default Garmin objects is a scary subject. :) The 0x64 series are man made geographical POIs. I think Garmin intends this series to be used for navigational purposes (i.e. there's a huge building/dam/oil field over there, I'll use it to triangulate my location). This is probably why they appear even when zoomed out. I think you're starting to push the limits of what is practical using the default Garmin objects (i.e. without the use of a TYP file) and a default style that is suitable for all uses (hiking, cycling, driving, tourism etc). Have you tried one of the "out-of-bounds" codes around the 0x2b area? Maybe 0x2b06 or 0x2b07 (tent icon) or 0x2b08 to 0x2b1f (green/white bed)? -- Charlie
On Tue, Feb 01, 2011 at 06:30:54AM +0000, charlie@cferrero.net wrote:
Have you tried one of the "out-of-bounds" codes around the 0x2b area? Maybe 0x2b06 or 0x2b07 (tent icon) or 0x2b08 to 0x2b1f (green/white bed)?
I guess that the 0x2b06 or 0x2b07 could be the least evil, as a tent looks like a shelter. This whole story started with the bed icon (0x2b05), which surely is inappropriate for a rain shelter in an urban area. Marko
2011/1/31 Marko Mäkelä <marko.makela@iki.fi>:
If nobody can suggest a better symbol for amenity=shelter, I would remove amenity=shelter altogether from the default style. There seems to be some agreement that amenity=shelter may be too inaccurate tagging for the tourism or hiking related shelters.
I have to disagree; amenity=shelter was meant to be hiking and tourism related from the start. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Shelter)
Side note: the unsearchable 0x6412 'hiker symbol' could be a good choice for some minor hiking feature. I think that sites where overnighting is possible do require a searchable symbol.
While I think it's good to distinguish simple structures like shelters from fully equipped overnighting places, it would be cool if shelters were searchable, so you can do a search for the nearest shelter when weather turns bad... -Martin
On Tue, Feb 01, 2011 at 03:41:50PM +0100, Martin Simon wrote:
2011/1/31 Marko Mäkelä <marko.makela@iki.fi>:
If nobody can suggest a better symbol for amenity=shelter, I would remove amenity=shelter altogether from the default style. There seems to be some agreement that amenity=shelter may be too inaccurate tagging for the tourism or hiking related shelters.
I have to disagree; amenity=shelter was meant to be hiking and tourism related from the start. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Shelter)
You are right, it is probably best to keep a 0x2b.. symbol for amenity=shelter for backward compatibility. It will take a while until all amenity=shelter that could be tourism=* have been converted. Until then, we just have to live with the bed symbol on amenity=shelter, or use a custom TYP file. Sorry Peter Hendricks and others who feel amused or offended by the bed symbols on amenity=shelter in urban areas, the solution is to redefine the amenity=shelter icon by using a TYP file.
Side note: the unsearchable 0x6412 'hiker symbol' could be a good choice for some minor hiking feature. I think that sites where overnighting is possible do require a searchable symbol.
While I think it's good to distinguish simple structures like shelters from fully equipped overnighting places, it would be cool if shelters were searchable, so you can do a search for the nearest shelter when weather turns bad...
As an all-weather, all-year bicyclist, I agree with you. This was one of the main reasons why I added the rules for highlighting shelter=yes/no in bus stop names. Best regards, Marko
2011/2/1 Marko Mäkelä <marko.makela@iki.fi>:
You are right, it is probably best to keep a 0x2b.. symbol for amenity=shelter for backward compatibility. It will take a while until all amenity=shelter that could be tourism=* have been converted. Until then, we just have to live with the bed symbol on amenity=shelter, or use a custom TYP file.
I actually have no opinion on changing vs. keeping the current Garmin ID for amenity=shelter (I use my own style + TYP file anyway). I just wanted to throw into the discussion that imho, amenity=shelter ist indeed about shelter huts in the countryside (which i think is what you meant by "hiking and tourism related"), that are unmanned and unmanaged (and don't have sleeping facilities as they're not intended for that). (which doesn't mean I don't use them for sleeping when I'm on a multi-day-hike.)
Sorry Peter Hendricks and others who feel amused or offended by the bed symbols on amenity=shelter in urban areas, the solution is to redefine the amenity=shelter icon by using a TYP file.
As I said, I have no opinion on the icon (and no clue about what garmin wanted to express with their POI symbols) Have fun, Martin
On 31/01/2011 21:26, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
Can anyone suggest a more suitable symbol for amenity=shelter? It does not need to be searchable, and it should not be any more 'visible' than, say, 0x2f17 (transit service; used by highway=bus_stop).
Apologies if I'm duplicating discussion that's already been had, as I'm coming late to this, but how about one of the 0x2f ones that only renders as a square dot* with a default name, perhaps? 0x2f|0x10|23 others|personal-service| 0x2f|0x14|23 others|social-service| So: amenity=shelter [0x2f14 resolution 23 default_name 'Shelter'] The "dot" or its name won't appear until a relatively high zoom level, but are searchable in the "all POI" list on an etrex and the corresponding POI / spell name list on a nuvi. On an etrex they appear in the "others" POI search. The last time that I looked at the default style "0x2f10" was used for hairdresser and similar, so it might be an issue if people are using the "others" list seriously. Cheers, Andy * (that I've seen on an etrex vista and a nuvi 265w)
On Tue, Feb 01, 2011 at 09:19:46PM +0000, SomeoneElse wrote:
Apologies if I'm duplicating discussion that's already been had, as I'm coming late to this, but how about one of the 0x2f ones that only renders as a square dot* with a default name, perhaps?
0x2f|0x10|23 others|personal-service| 0x2f|0x14|23 others|social-service|
Well, I would not want to pollute the hairdresser list with shelters. This is getting funny. Think about this scenario: Someone has been hiking and camping for weeks in the forests and is looking for the closest hairdresser, so that he can return to civilization without scaring too many people. And all he gets is another hiking shelter. :-) I have not used the 0x2f14 so far, because its Garmin Finnish translation says 'social welfare office'. I can imagine that shelters could be used by the homeless, but somehow such tagging feels inappropriate. Marko
On 02/02/2011 07:40, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
Well, I would not want to pollute the hairdresser list with shelters. This is getting funny. Think about this scenario: Someone has been hiking and camping for weeks in the forests and is looking for the closest hairdresser, so that he can return to civilization without scaring too many people. And all he gets is another hiking shelter. :-) I certainly wouldn't want to upset the hairdressers ... I have not used the 0x2f14 so far, because its Garmin Finnish translation says 'social welfare office'. I can imagine that shelters could be used by the homeless, but somehow such tagging feels inappropriate. In English it's "Social Service" which is about as vague. In British English that would normally mean a department of the local or city goverment, and I'm not sure that American English even has the same concept.
Does anyone have any idea what Garmin actually meant it to be used for or if a symbol actually appears by default on any devices? Cheers, Andy
On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 01:26:11PM +0000, SomeoneElse wrote:
I have not used the 0x2f14 so far, because its Garmin Finnish translation says 'social welfare office'. In English it's "Social Service" which is about as vague.
I believe that it was translated from that string without making any attempt to establish the context. The Finnish translation is unambiguous. There are mistranslations in the Edge 705 menu labels as well: Units is 'laitteet' (devices) and the imperial unit of elevation is miles, not feet in Finnish. I wonder if anyone has bothered to complain to Garmin. It has been the same in all firmware versions that I have tried. Marko
participants (4)
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charlie＠cferrero.net -
Marko Mäkelä -
Martin Simon -
SomeoneElse