Hi, This becomes Campground/RVPark with the default style. Surely, this is not intended? Cheers, Peter.
On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 04:03:44PM +1300, Peter Hendricks wrote:
This becomes Campground/RVPark with the default style. Surely, this is not intended?
In the wiki, there is no tourism=shelter. So, amenity=shelter has been used to tag some of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean-to#Laavu What kind of a shelter do you have in mind? If it is a bus stop shelter, then it should be highway=bus_stop, shelter=yes. Marko
I see where this is coming from. The problem is that there are other shelters, like roadside shelters that have nothing to do with buses. Like this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/80909803 It's a lay-by with gas, food, etc. and there is a shelter from sun and rain. Nothing to do with mountains or hiking. Perhaps this needs to be tagged differently, but in any case, even a mountain shelter shouldn't show up on the map as a campground. Perhaps 0x6402 building would be more appropriate? Label=shelter as well? Incidentally, the area highway=services on the GPS map turns into a POI "Exit Unknown" with an interesting properties page. Check it out @ N14.85751 E100.09283 Thanks for your time. Peter. On 5/12/2010 20:19, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 04:03:44PM +1300, Peter Hendricks wrote:
This becomes Campground/RVPark with the default style. Surely, this is not intended?
In the wiki, there is no tourism=shelter. So, amenity=shelter has been used to tag some of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean-to#Laavu
What kind of a shelter do you have in mind? If it is a bus stop shelter, then it should be highway=bus_stop, shelter=yes.
Marko
Sorry for the late reply. On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 07:47:21AM +1300, Peter Hendricks wrote:
I see where this is coming from. The problem is that there are other shelters, like roadside shelters that have nothing to do with buses. Like this one:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/80909803
It's a lay-by with gas, food, etc. and there is a shelter from sun and rain. Nothing to do with mountains or hiking. Perhaps this needs to be tagged differently, but in any case, even a mountain shelter shouldn't show up on the map as a campground. Perhaps 0x6402 building would be more appropriate? Label=shelter as well?
What about tourism=picnic_site, fireplace=yes, covered=yes? The default style already translates it into 0x4a00. I saw some tourism=lean_to when fixing a multipolygon issue in a natural reserve today. I guess I should add tourism=lean_to to the default style (translate it as amenity=shelter) and maybe add a comment next to amenity=shelter suggesting that tourism=picnic_site or tourism=lean_to (or highway=bus_stop, shelter=yes) should be used instead.
Incidentally, the area highway=services on the GPS map turns into a POI "Exit Unknown" with an interesting properties page. Check it out @ N14.85751 E100.09283
This is probably because you are using add-pois-to-areas. The default style translates the POI with highway=services into 0x210f. I have not seen any legitimate use of highway=services in Finland. There are some (usually unmanned) driver rest areas next to major highways, which I would tag as amenity=parking, parking=surface, surface=paved and optionally with POIs for waste disposal, toilets, kiosks and such. I see that the wiki now defines highway=rest_area for unmanned rest areas. Best regards, Marko
Hi again, Thanks for your response. On 5/01/2011 04:38, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
Sorry for the late reply.
On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 07:47:21AM +1300, Peter Hendricks wrote:
I see where this is coming from. The problem is that there are other shelters, like roadside shelters that have nothing to do with buses. Like this one:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/80909803
It's a lay-by with gas, food, etc. and there is a shelter from sun and rain. Nothing to do with mountains or hiking. Perhaps this needs to be tagged differently, but in any case, even a mountain shelter shouldn't show up on the map as a campground. Perhaps 0x6402 building would be more appropriate? Label=shelter as well?
What about tourism=picnic_site, fireplace=yes, covered=yes? The default style already translates it into 0x4a00.
I don't know what to say to this. I didn't create the node, or indeed the whole rest area. Thailand is full of roadside shelters, usually quaint wooden constructions and I can see how anybody who wants to tag one would use shelter, as there is no other obvious choice, certainly not in JOSM.
I saw some tourism=lean_to when fixing a multipolygon issue in a natural
tourism= is not an obvious choice, as most shelters have nothing to do with tourism. Also, a lean-to is something attached to another building, as the name suggests. In any case, amenity=shelter in the img file becomes "Unknown type (0x2b05, point)" in GPSMapEdit. Why in the map this becomes a camp ground is beyond me, but it's a bug.
Incidentally, the area highway=services on the GPS map turns into a POI "Exit Unknown" with an interesting properties page. Check it out @ N14.85751 E100.09283
This is probably because you are using add-pois-to-areas. The default
I think you are correct here (Lambertus certainly does), although the POI should be something more intelligent. Kind regards, Peter.
Hi Peter, On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 06:12:20PM +0700, Peter Hendricks wrote:
Hi again,
Thanks for your response.
On 5/01/2011 04:38, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
Sorry for the late reply.
On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 07:47:21AM +1300, Peter Hendricks wrote:
I see where this is coming from. The problem is that there are other shelters, like roadside shelters that have nothing to do with buses. Like this one:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/80909803
It's a lay-by with gas, food, etc. and there is a shelter from sun and rain. Nothing to do with mountains or hiking. Perhaps this needs to be tagged differently, but in any case, even a mountain shelter shouldn't show up on the map as a campground. Perhaps 0x6402 building would be more appropriate? Label=shelter as well?
What about tourism=picnic_site, fireplace=yes, covered=yes? The default style already translates it into 0x4a00.
I don't know what to say to this. I didn't create the node, or indeed the whole rest area. Thailand is full of roadside shelters, usually quaint wooden constructions and I can see how anybody who wants to tag one would use shelter, as there is no other obvious choice, certainly not in JOSM.
You have to bear with me, as I am not a native speaker. What is the typical usage scenario of the shelter? Is it for protecting goods, or for protecting people? There are used to be some 'milk shelters' in the Finnish countryside. Farmers would move milk the cows and place the milk in large metal vessels in a roadside shelter, where the milk truck would pick them up. Nowadays the farms are much larger and the truck fetches the milk directly from a tank at the farm. I do not know if any tagging practice exists for these largely disused features, but if one exists, might it be applicable?
I saw some tourism=lean_to
tourism= is not an obvious choice, as most shelters have nothing to do with tourism. Also, a lean-to is something attached to another building, as the name suggests.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean-to the word has two meanings. In the woods, there usually is no building that the structure would lean to. I have seen two types of lean-to in the Finnish woods: a fixed (wooden one) and a temporary one, somewhat similar to a tent. Only the fixed ones would be tagged as tourism=lean_to, I believe.
In any case, amenity=shelter in the img file becomes "Unknown type (0x2b05, point)" in GPSMapEdit. Why in the map this becomes a camp ground is beyond me, but it's a bug.
To me it would seem to be a bug or omission in GPSMapEdit. It is Garmin who defines the meanings of the codes, not some third-party software author. I am sorry that I cannot provide an immediate fix to this. Living in a different part of the world, I am not familiar with this concept. Once you have a clear suggestion (maybe something that has been discussed on the tagging mailing list), I am happy to do something.
Incidentally, the area highway=services on the GPS map turns into a POI "Exit Unknown" with an interesting properties page. Check it out @ N14.85751 E100.09283
This is probably because you are using add-pois-to-areas.
I think you are correct here (Lambertus certainly does), although the POI should be something more intelligent.
The POI for the highway=services could be inappropriate. Are there any significant amounts of highway=motorway_junction that are tagged as highway=services? If not, we should probably remove the highway=services from the POI translation. The existing translations for amenity=fuel and shop=* should cover the road-side services, after all. Best regards, Marko
Hi again, On 16/01/2011 02:54, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
What is the typical usage scenario of the shelter? Is it for protecting
4 posts in the ground with some kind of overhanging roof. People will seek shelter under the roof from either sun or rain. These are found all over Thailand on road sides. If it rains you can often even get your bike in there, if there aren't too many people. There are no bus stops in the country side, but people may wait there for public transport. You can't call it a building, as it doesn't have walls. Whatever you call it, it should not show in the map as a camp ground, as even alpine shelters have nothing to do with that.
In any case, amenity=shelter in the img file becomes "Unknown type (0x2b05, point)" in GPSMapEdit. Why in the map this becomes a camp ground is beyond me, but it's a bug.
To me it would seem to be a bug or omission in GPSMapEdit. It is Garmin who defines the meanings of the codes, not some third-party software author.
I'm with you there.
Incidentally, the area highway=services on the GPS map turns into a POI "Exit Unknown" with an interesting properties page. Check it out @ N14.85751 E100.09283
This is probably because you are using add-pois-to-areas.
I think you are correct here (Lambertus certainly does), although the POI should be something more intelligent.
The POI for the highway=services could be inappropriate. Are there any significant amounts of highway=motorway_junction that are tagged as highway=services? If not, we should probably remove the highway=services from the POI translation. The existing translations for amenity=fuel and shop=* should cover the road-side services, after all.
It's got nothing to do with junctions. From the wiki: "A service station to get food and eat something, often found at motorways " "Service station" is probably not a good description, as that implies a place run by a petrol company. For the POI I would suggest "Exit Services" if the area doesn't have a name, but others may have better ideas. Kind regards, Peter.
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:32:04AM +0700, Peter Hendricks wrote:
4 posts in the ground with some kind of overhanging roof. People will seek shelter under the roof from either sun or rain. These are found all over Thailand on road sides. If it rains you can often even get your bike in there, if there aren't too many people. There are no bus stops in the country side, but people may wait there for public transport. You can't call it a building, as it doesn't have walls.
Whatever you call it, it should not show in the map as a camp ground, as even alpine shelters have nothing to do with that.
OK, what about this? Replace amenity=shelter with tourism=lean_to in the default style. Then, no amenity=shelter would show up in the map. If you can suggest a sensible Garmin symbol code for amenity=shelter, we can add that as well.
"Service station" is probably not a good description, as that implies a place run by a petrol company. For the POI I would suggest "Exit Services" if the area doesn't have a name, but others may have better ideas.
What about just Services? That would work a little better in other languages than English languages, because the OSM tag is highway=services. "Services" can be understandable in more languages than "exit", and the "exit" does not seem to add much value in English either. Best regards, Marko
On 19/01/2011 20:16, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
OK, what about this? Replace amenity=shelter with tourism=lean_to in the default style. Then, no amenity=shelter would show up in the map. If you can suggest a sensible Garmin symbol code for amenity=shelter, we can add that as well.
Yes, but aren't you going to shift the problem to a different tag? The only thing showing on the map as camp ground is a camp ground, i.e. tourism=camp_site or caravan_site. I'm not ware of Garmin map symbols for either shelters or lean-tos. I think there is a building symbol and perhaps a name of 'shelter' could be added, if there is no name, but I think if it didn't show at all that would be just fine.
"Service station" is probably not a good description, as that implies a place run by a petrol company. For the POI I would suggest "Exit Services" if the area doesn't have a name, but others may have better ideas.
What about just Services? That would work a little better in other languages than English languages, because the OSM tag is highway=services. "Services" can be understandable in more languages than "exit", and the "exit" does not seem to add much value in English either.
That sounds perfectly good to me. Regards, Peter.
Hi Peter, On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 08:02:44PM +0700, Peter Hendricks wrote:
Yes, but aren't you going to shift the problem to a different tag? The only thing showing on the map as camp ground is a camp ground, i.e. tourism=camp_site or caravan_site. I'm not ware of Garmin map symbols for either shelters or lean-tos.
The tourism=lean_to in my part of the world are used for camping or overnighting by hitchhikers or long-distance skiers. Such users would probably prefer some searchable symbol, so that they can navigate to the nearest lean-to or desert hut. A generic building symbol (if there is one) would probably not be searchable, as there are so many buildings. Camp_site or caravan_site seems to imply access for motor vehicles. These tourism=lean_to would be in the forests, not necessarily reachable by road vehicles.
I think there is a building symbol and perhaps a name of 'shelter' could be added, if there is no name, but I think if it didn't show at all that would be just fine.
I agree that either treatment would be fine for amenity=shelter. Do you happen to know the code of the building symbol?
What about just Services? That would work a little better in other languages than English languages, because the OSM tag is highway=services. "Services" can be understandable in more languages than "exit", and the "exit" does not seem to add much value in English either.
That sounds perfectly good to me.
OK, I will do that then. Best regards, Marko
On 22/01/2011 22:40, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
I agree that either treatment would be fine for amenity=shelter. Do you happen to know the code of the building symbol?
According to GPSME it is 0x6402. There is also 6412 Trailhead, which we could abuse for this purpose, perhaps? Kind regards, Peter.
Hi, Shelters have been changed to buildings in v 1765 or thereabouts. Now they are back to being camp sites. City parks and highway service areas now sport 'camp grounds' and a POI search is now polluted by them. Why is this? Can we please have buildings back of some sort? Regards, Peter.
Hello Peter, On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 12:09:09PM +0200, Peter Hendricks wrote:
Shelters have been changed to buildings in v 1765 or thereabouts. Now they are back to being camp sites.
Yes. The reason for this back-and-forth was that it turned out that the building POI code is likely reserved for landmark buildings (skyscrapers), because the shelters would show up much earlier than more many shops, for example. Having shelters show up at 500m (or .5mi) zoom level would pollute the map display in cities. Nothing else than amenity=shelter is using the 0x2b06 POI code. Most of the 0x2bxx code space is used for accommodation (0x2b04 being the exception) in the default style. The tag amenity=shelter is problematic, because sometimes has been used instead for mapping something that implies sleeping or eating facilities (and would better be tagged as tourism=lean_to, tourism=wilderness_hut or tourism=picnic_site), while in other cases it is just a generic shelter where camping is not possible or allowed. The only users of the code 0x2b03 are these rules: tourism=camp_site [0x2b03 resolution 24] tourism=caravan_site [0x2b03 resolution 24] I guess that if you wanted to better distinguish amenity=shelter (0x2b06) from camp sites (0x2b03), you could use a TYP file that assigns a different default name and symbol for 0x2b06.
City parks and highway service areas now sport 'camp grounds' and a POI search is now polluted by them. Why is this?
Sorry, I am not sure I completely follow you here. There is no rule for a highway=service area in the polygons file; such areas should show up as regular ways in the default style. Are you referring to the polygon type 0x17? highway=pedestrian&area=yes translates to it, along with some leisure=* and landuse=*. I am open to better suggestions for the highway=pedestrian polygon type, because the other polygons imply some green elements, while pedestrian areas lined with paving stones can be void of anything green. Also, the Garmin Edge 705 default name for 0x17 is something like "park" (my translation from non-English user interface). Do we even need unnamed highway=pedestrian areas on the Garmin map? I guess that named plazas or squares could be useful, but unnamed ones only make the map grow bigger, with little or no added value. Polygons (areas) are not assigned POIs by default. If you (like me) compile the map with --add-pois-to-areas, then you should get POIs for those closed ways whose attributes occur in both the polygons and points files. Buth, there is no rule for highway=pedestrian in the default style. There are rules for leisure=* and and landuse=*&name!=*. I think that the POI 0x2c06 (used by leisure=playground and a few other things) can be useful when bicycling around with kids. On the Edge 705, they appear in a separate menu from the camping grounds (unless I select "all categories"). Best regards, Marko
Hi, This discussion has nothing to do with polygons. I don't know what any of these codes are used for, nor do the users of the maps care. We now have tents all over the map, in forests and city parks, the same symbol that is used to indicate camp sites. If changing them to something else, like the little blue square or whatever, is too difficult then I propose that they are removed altogether from the compiled map. Just zoom into any city in Germany to see what I mean. Regards, Peter. On 1/07/2011 23:24, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
Hello Peter,
On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 12:09:09PM +0200, Peter Hendricks wrote:
Shelters have been changed to buildings in v 1765 or thereabouts. Now they are back to being camp sites.
Yes. The reason for this back-and-forth was that it turned out that the building POI code is likely reserved for landmark buildings (skyscrapers), because the shelters would show up much earlier than more many shops, for example. Having shelters show up at 500m (or .5mi) zoom level would pollute the map display in cities.
Nothing else than amenity=shelter is using the 0x2b06 POI code. Most of the 0x2bxx code space is used for accommodation (0x2b04 being the exception) in the default style. The tag amenity=shelter is problematic, because sometimes has been used instead for mapping something that implies sleeping or eating facilities (and would better be tagged as tourism=lean_to, tourism=wilderness_hut or tourism=picnic_site), while in other cases it is just a generic shelter where camping is not possible or allowed.
The only users of the code 0x2b03 are these rules:
tourism=camp_site [0x2b03 resolution 24] tourism=caravan_site [0x2b03 resolution 24]
I guess that if you wanted to better distinguish amenity=shelter (0x2b06) from camp sites (0x2b03), you could use a TYP file that assigns a different default name and symbol for 0x2b06.
City parks and highway service areas now sport 'camp grounds' and a POI search is now polluted by them. Why is this?
Sorry, I am not sure I completely follow you here. There is no rule for a highway=service area in the polygons file; such areas should show up as regular ways in the default style.
Are you referring to the polygon type 0x17? highway=pedestrian&area=yes translates to it, along with some leisure=* and landuse=*. I am open to better suggestions for the highway=pedestrian polygon type, because the other polygons imply some green elements, while pedestrian areas lined with paving stones can be void of anything green. Also, the Garmin Edge 705 default name for 0x17 is something like "park" (my translation from non-English user interface).
Do we even need unnamed highway=pedestrian areas on the Garmin map? I guess that named plazas or squares could be useful, but unnamed ones only make the map grow bigger, with little or no added value.
Polygons (areas) are not assigned POIs by default. If you (like me) compile the map with --add-pois-to-areas, then you should get POIs for those closed ways whose attributes occur in both the polygons and points files. Buth, there is no rule for highway=pedestrian in the default style. There are rules for leisure=* and and landuse=*&name!=*.
I think that the POI 0x2c06 (used by leisure=playground and a few other things) can be useful when bicycling around with kids. On the Edge 705, they appear in a separate menu from the camping grounds (unless I select "all categories").
Best regards,
Marko
On Jul 2, 2011, at 9:54, Peter Hendricks wrote:
This discussion has nothing to do with polygons. I don't know what any of these codes are used for, nor do the users of the maps care.
You know, if you are unsatisfied with the default POI mapping, you are free to define your own. This is what I and a lot of others have been doing for quite some time. Cheers.
On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 09:54:30AM +0200, Peter Hendricks wrote:
This discussion has nothing to do with polygons. I don't know what any of these codes are used for, nor do the users of the maps care. We now have tents all over the map, in forests and city parks, the same symbol that is used to indicate camp sites.
If you do not give details, there is little I can do about this.
If changing them to something else, like the little blue square or whatever, is too difficult then I propose that they are removed altogether from the compiled map.
You are free to adapt the default style for your needs, like many have done.
Just zoom into any city in Germany to see what I mean.
Can you at least give some map coordinates or perhaps even post a screenshot? Best regards, Marko
participants (3)
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Clinton Gladstone -
Marko Mäkelä -
Peter Hendricks