Parallel major roads to cycleways
Hi, I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps: In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row. Example: A way with bicycle=designated : http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 runs next to highway=primary B213 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949 I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you -- so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close. A possible way would be this: Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides). Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists. I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here. Questions: 1) Do you think this would good to have? 2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style? Gerd
There is a fledgling effort underway here in Chiang Mai to do a similar thing. This effort centers around the desirability of a route for bicycling. It deals with scenic vs dangerous roads for cycling and the 3 point system it uses might be insufficient for your needs but it might be adapted. Worth a look at any rate. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Thailand#Bicycling_tagging_.... Dave On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Gerd Petermann < GPetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps: In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row. Example: A way with bicycle=designated : http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 runs next to highway=primary B213 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949
I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you -- so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.
A possible way would be this: Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides). Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists. I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.
Questions: 1) Do you think this would good to have? 2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style?
Gerd
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
-- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
Interesting idea Gerd but those roads are also arterial connections to get in or out of the city so for commuting cyclists essential. A benefit to have such hook is that I can copy the name of the major highway to the parallel cycleway if it lacks a name. This is for address search essential, since the major highway is often not routable in my maps. Another benefit could be that I can force the router to route on those parallel and often obligatory cycleways and give a high penalty (lesser road_speed or road_class) for the major highway sections. In OSM those highways often lacks a tag bicycle=no or bicycle=use_sidepath where in reality the parallel cycleways are obligatory. ________________________________ Van: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> namens Dave Swarthout <daveswarthout@gmail.com> Verzonden: donderdag 16 maart 2017 03:40:10 Aan: Development list for mkgmap Onderwerp: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways There is a fledgling effort underway here in Chiang Mai to do a similar thing. This effort centers around the desirability of a route for bicycling. It deals with scenic vs dangerous roads for cycling and the 3 point system it uses might be insufficient for your needs but it might be adapted. Worth a look at any rate. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Thailand#Bicycling_tagging_.... Dave On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Gerd Petermann <GPetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com<mailto:GPetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com>> wrote: Hi, I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps: In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row. Example: A way with bicycle=designated : http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 runs next to highway=primary B213 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949 I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you -- so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close. A possible way would be this: Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides). Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists. I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here. Questions: 1) Do you think this would good to have? 2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk<mailto:mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
Hi lig fietser, yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search. Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered ways apart from major roads. What problem do you see here? Gerd Gerd ________________________________________ Von: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> im Auftrag von lig fietser <ligfietser@hotmail.com> Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 09:20:11 An: Development list for mkgmap; daveswarthout@gmail.com Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways Interesting idea Gerd but those roads are also arterial connections to get in or out of the city so for commuting cyclists essential. A benefit to have such hook is that I can copy the name of the major highway to the parallel cycleway if it lacks a name. This is for address search essential, since the major highway is often not routable in my maps. Another benefit could be that I can force the router to route on those parallel and often obligatory cycleways and give a high penalty (lesser road_speed or road_class) for the major highway sections. In OSM those highways often lacks a tag bicycle=no or bicycle=use_sidepath where in reality the parallel cycleways are obligatory. ________________________________ Van: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> namens Dave Swarthout <daveswarthout@gmail.com> Verzonden: donderdag 16 maart 2017 03:40:10 Aan: Development list for mkgmap Onderwerp: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways There is a fledgling effort underway here in Chiang Mai to do a similar thing. This effort centers around the desirability of a route for bicycling. It deals with scenic vs dangerous roads for cycling and the 3 point system it uses might be insufficient for your needs but it might be adapted. Worth a look at any rate. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Thailand#Bicycling_tagging_.... Dave On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Gerd Petermann <GPetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com<mailto:GPetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com>> wrote: Hi, I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps: In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row. Example: A way with bicycle=designated : http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 runs next to highway=primary B213 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949 I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you -- so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close. A possible way would be this: Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides). Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists. I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here. Questions: 1) Do you think this would good to have? 2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk<mailto:mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
Sorry, no objections there, it's of course up to the map maker if he/she decides to give a dislike grade to those roads or not. Unfortunaltely Garmin does not have a "scenic" option, only an option to prefer curvy roads in the devices dedicated to motorcyclists. As you know, in my maps I have to misuse toll avoidance to force the route to take cycling routes. Gerd wrote: yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search. Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered ways apart from major roads. What problem do you see here? Gerd
BTW: Arndt asked in his german post how to use the "narrow trails avoidance" in activity routing. I've never tried that. I always assumed that the Garmin assumes that roads with a low road_class are narrow trails. I don't know any special flag to mark a road as a narrow trail. Maybe this is was added in the NT format? Gerd ________________________________________ Von: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> im Auftrag von lig fietser <ligfietser@hotmail.com> Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 10:01:33 An: Development list for mkgmap Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways Sorry, no objections there, it's of course up to the map maker if he/she decides to give a dislike grade to those roads or not. Unfortunaltely Garmin does not have a "scenic" option, only an option to prefer curvy roads in the devices dedicated to motorcyclists. As you know, in my maps I have to misuse toll avoidance to force the route to take cycling routes. Gerd wrote: yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search. Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered ways apart from major roads. What problem do you see here? Gerd
Yes I think it is in the NT format, I have never seen any mkgmap tag that could trigger those narrow trails. ________________________________ Van: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> namens Gerd Petermann <GPetermann_muenchen@hotmail.com> Verzonden: vrijdag 17 maart 2017 02:14:38 Aan: Development list for mkgmap Onderwerp: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways BTW: Arndt asked in his german post how to use the "narrow trails avoidance" in activity routing. I've never tried that. I always assumed that the Garmin assumes that roads with a low road_class are narrow trails. I don't know any special flag to mark a road as a narrow trail. Maybe this is was added in the NT format? Gerd ________________________________________ Von: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> im Auftrag von lig fietser <ligfietser@hotmail.com> Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 10:01:33 An: Development list for mkgmap Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways Sorry, no objections there, it's of course up to the map maker if he/she decides to give a dislike grade to those roads or not. Unfortunaltely Garmin does not have a "scenic" option, only an option to prefer curvy roads in the devices dedicated to motorcyclists. As you know, in my maps I have to misuse toll avoidance to force the route to take cycling routes. Gerd wrote: yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search. Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered ways apart from major roads. What problem do you see here? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
Hopefully this does not dampen your enthusiasm. I like the idea, but I think that this is a lot of effort with little application The first reason is that Garmin devices are just terrible at bike routing, every single cyclist I know just use it for navigating a GPX that came from a online routing service like cycle.travel or BRouter, or routes from other people. The second reason is that even the bikers who route on the device might like these ways. Separated cycle ways along major roads are not dangerous, just loud, and often paved and in very good condition. So would it be nice to have the option? Yes Would many people really use it? I doubt it. Am 16.03.2017 um 11:06 schrieb Gerd Petermann:
Hi,
I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps: In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row. Example: A way with bicycle=designated : http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 runs next to highway=primary B213 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949
I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you -- so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.
A possible way would be this: Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides). Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists. I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.
Questions: 1) Do you think this would good to have? 2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style?
Gerd
_______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
Hi Jakob, I am also one of those who create their GPX files with other (online) programs, but I've still not found one which I can configure so that my route preferences are met, so I hope that I can improve the routing in Basecamp/Mapsource. I use the routing on device only for small distances, e.g. when I am searching for a supermarket, restaurant etc. while I follow a GPX track. Gerd ________________________________________ Von: mkgmap-dev <mkgmap-dev-bounces@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> im Auftrag von Jakob Mühldorfer <mail@jmuehldorfer.de> Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 13:49:13 An: mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways Hopefully this does not dampen your enthusiasm. I like the idea, but I think that this is a lot of effort with little application The first reason is that Garmin devices are just terrible at bike routing, every single cyclist I know just use it for navigating a GPX that came from a online routing service like cycle.travel or BRouter, or routes from other people. The second reason is that even the bikers who route on the device might like these ways. Separated cycle ways along major roads are not dangerous, just loud, and often paved and in very good condition. So would it be nice to have the option? Yes Would many people really use it? I doubt it. Am 16.03.2017 um 11:06 schrieb Gerd Petermann: Hi, I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps: In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row. Example: A way with bicycle=designated : http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 runs next to highway=primary B213 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949 I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you -- so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close. A possible way would be this: Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides). Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists. I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here. Questions: 1) Do you think this would good to have? 2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style? Gerd _______________________________________________ mkgmap-dev mailing list mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk<mailto:mkgmap-dev@lists.mkgmap.org.uk> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
I am also one of those who create their GPX files with other (online) programs, but I've still not found one which I can configure so that my route preferences are met, so I hope that I can improve the routing in Basecamp/Mapsource. I use the routing on device only for small distances, e.g. when I am searching for a supermarket, restaurant etc. while I follow a GPX track.
I use routing a lot for cycling. Most of the time I do use a custom style. But that's mostly to keep out really stupid things like steps or highways. In Amsterdam, I add tags to make things really right, i.e. to make sure that you always end up on the cycle path and not on the main road even when the cycle path is crazy. But for example in Brussels, it just works and I never did any mapping there.
participants (5)
-
Dave Swarthout -
Gerd Petermann -
Jakob Mühldorfer -
lig fietser -
Philip Homburg